***** START ***** Documentation on 3:711/934's expulsion from fidonet. Written by Paul Edwards (sysop of 3:711/934). Sequence of events: 1. N711 NC threatens to arbitrarily denodelist me (note - not even PC me!), because of messages that a user (Rod Speed) posts in a couple of free-for-all echos, namely BBS_USER and AUST_AVTECH. See "Message A". 2. I refuse to do so, citing that he should raise a PC, but anyway, echomail is carried by consenting nodes, I'm not stopping Rod unless there is a request from the moderator (and BTW, he IS the moderator of AUST_AVTECH). 3. David decides that since he is the new N711 echomail feed, he can screw me by just not carrying the echos. 4. I move to N712 for all my echomail needs, and only occasionally poll N711 for the odd netmail. 5. Some months later, an unrelated issue in ZONE3_SYSOP (which incidentally was taken from NET_DEV into ZONE3_SYSOP by Ian Smith, presumably in a successful attempt to goad me into a clash with the rest of Z3), a debate raged between me and the-rest-of-Z3 as to whether the "new FTSC" was legitimate or not. I was saying it was, the rest of them were supporters of the old one. Someone (Trev Roydhouse) suggested that these "unfounded allegations" could be considered excessively annoying, and were clearly covered by P4. A couple of responses later, David sent me Message B, yet another threat to arbitrarily denodelist me if I didn't do what he wanted. 6. Once again I tell him I am not going to do what he wants, and crosspost his message into ZONE3_SYSOP MYSELF. 7. He chooses to raise a PC, and lodges it with our then RC, Kevin Mann. Kevin Mann is the guy who previously supported another PC by David, against someone who had a user that posted a "commercial message" into ZONE3_SYSOP. He is also the guy that was about to appoint David More to N711 NC without a vote (which is his right, but not very nice). Kevin Mann soon after threatens to kick me out of RG54_SYSOP because of my "poison pen" messages. Despite all this, I was still expecting a fair decision from him over David More's PC. I'm not exactly sure what David's PC was about. Anyway, I also lodged a PC of my own, about David being too easily annoyed. But my ZC is David Nugent, and he had already stated (both by messages, and by PC rulings) that echomail clashes are not PCable offences. So the trump card was waiting in the winds. 8. Weeks go by, no decision from the RC as yet. Then David More presumably gets impatient, and decides to abuse his position as NC by simply denodelisting me, rather than wait for his PC to be ruled on. See Message C. 9. This meant an immediate feed cut for me, and I immediately appealed to both the RC and the ZC to give my N712 feed permission to feed me echomail whilst the appeal was being heard. I didn't get a response from the RC, but my ZC said that P4 said the exact opposite (which is true), and that I had to wait for the appeal process. 10. I was prepared to wait 1-2 days for immediate action to overthrow this pathetic dictatorial action by my NC, but nothing happened (weeks later, still nothing was done). I have abandoned Fidonet - weeks of mail loss is unacceptable, I'll finally make the switch to the internet. In the meantime, David More resigned as NC, and was taken over by Trev Roydhouse. Kevin Mann resigned as RC. The original PCs were passed onto the ZC, who in turn appointed a new RC, Paul Marwick (without the normal election because it would take too long), so that he could rule on the PCs/appeals. Mr Speedyfixit turned out to be Mr Donothing. Ted Harrison, my N712 feed eventually resigned because David Nugent hadn't held an election. I think this is a strange reason to resign personally. 11. I expect a large group of people like fidonet to have some fascists in it. What I don't expect is that they should be able to act out their fascism and not get stomped on. I have therefore given up on fidonet as a joke, and have create a new dial-up network based on the internet standards (UUCP, RFC-822 etc). For more information on joining this network, send email to avon@matra.com.au. 12. Some time in late July/early August, David More (who had become NC again all of a sudden, perhaps because Trev Roydhouse had resigned on the grounds of being a fascist-supporter), announces that I can have a node number back if I reapply, after all, my 6 week suspension was up, and I'd been a good boy all that time. Anyway, I declined to reapply, I was happy to let due process (ie the 3 complaints/appeals waiting with the RC) to be ruled upon and the N711 NC would subsequently be told to relist me, no strings attached. 13. On 1997-08-09, the new N711 NC, Charles Yendle, who must have managed to make it through the bizarre David-More-election-procedure (instead of following normal procedure for electing volunteer positions by allowing self-nomination, he actually required TWO people to second you before you could nominate - ROFL!), announced that he was renodelisting me, but marking me as down, because I had ceased to run ZMH (which is true), and that I had 2 weeks to get my ZMH support back in operation, or I'd be denodelisted on technical grounds. I installed Binkley for Linux that same day, and started observing ZMH, whilst doing UUCP at all other times, as of 1997-08-10. 14. By 1997-09-10, I was still not nodelisted properly, I was still marked as "Hold". To understand this, you must first understand that Charles Yendle himself is one of the many fascists that seem to live in my geographical region (other areas of Sydney are nothing like this). In ZONE3_SYSOP, he was baying for me to be denodelisted much louder than David More ever did (More just DID it). As such, I was shocked when he said he was going to renodelist me of his own free will, rather than being forced to by an RC ruling. Presumably he thought I wouldn't be able to technically achieve ZMH compliance, but he was wrong, 3 bitter hours were all that it took. However, after ascertaining that I was ZMH compliant, instead of getting rid of the "Down", he decided that I should have to reapply for N711 membership by filling in a new form, and put me on "Hold" until I did. Get real. If there is any justice, even though its way past time for that, the RC should rule on my appeal, and DIRECT the NC to put my listing back. Not mark it as Down, or Hold or anything else, but put it back after it was illegitimately removed. If, after it is back in, it turns out that there is some technical changes to my system, I shall inform my NC just like I would have had I never been denodelisted in the first place. Or if I am found to be not ZMH compliant, I can then be marked as down. Anyway, my NC has indicated that he will be denodelisting me once again. But then, he said he was going to nodelist me if I was up for ZMH, so maybe he's lying about the denodelisting too. 15. So on the subject of long-awaited RC rulings, just what is the story there? Note that our current RC, Paul Marwick, was *appointed* (after years of RC elections by the NCs) by David Nugent many months ago in order to provide a speedy resolution to the Edwards/More (listed in increasing order of fascist tendencies) affair. The fact that he accepted the appointment presumably meant that Mr Speedyfixit was confident that he could do the job quickly and effectively. Well, that was the theory, anyway. When asked some difficult questions in RG54_SYSOP, he indicated that he had better things to do with his life than fido. Ted Harrison (a mail mover in Sydney) gave up in disgust soon after this. I heard on the grapevine that Mr Marwick agreed with the arbitrary denodelisting, but he's yet to officially rule on that. Still, when you've got better things to do with your life, I can appreciate why someone would put my nodelisting on the "who gives a shit" pile. 16. So where do we go from here? I've already appealed all the way up to the top. The RC's have declined to do anything. The ZC's have palmed it off onto the RC's. All my hopes are now pinned on the IC seeing sense. With a bit of luck we'll have one of them by the turn of the century, so I've got something to look forward to. My personal opinion is that the RC's should be sacked by the ZC until one of them delivers a verdict within 30 days (I checked P4, it says 30 days, not 30 weeks). The ZC's should be sacked until one of them brings the RC's to account. While we're at it, we may as well make the South Pole a bit warmer, it's a lousy excuse for a tropical island at the moment. Hey, but WHO GIVES A SHIT. It's not your node number at stake, is it? So long as you keep your tongue firmly down your NC's pants, you'll be right, Jack. Just remember to keep that smile on your face whenever he farts. 17. 1997-11-20 and I am no longer nodelisted, even as hold, despite the fact that I've been observing ZMH for 3 months. 18. 1997-11-22 I receive an echomail from Alwyn Smith, where he has decided that since Marwick has dragged his feet for 120 days, my PC and appeals have gone outside the statute of limitations, so the issue is closed. ROFL!!! Nevermind that they say it may not be FILED that long after the event, when I filed it within HOURS after the event. See Message D. And nevermind that it invokes a whole lot of non-P4 procedures which I was presumably supposed to know about. And nevermind that it entrenches David More's right to suspend me for whatever period he pleases, even if he does "get it wrong". Also note that Alwyn's idea of "working behind the scenes" doesn't actually involve speaking to the only victim in this travesty of justice. He apparently thought that I was meant to do more than submit 1 PC and 2 appeals, I was meant to contact him for reasons I am unaware (P4 is unaware too), and didn't even let anyone know that I had this "obligation". Nevermind that P4 clearly says that I submit the PC's and appeals, and the *C is meant to contact me with his decision. I would have even accepted the decision second hand, but no decision at all? What a joke. Not as big a joke as incorrectly applying the 120 day rule whilst totally ignoring the 30 day rule - it is completely bizarre and completely sick. 19. 1997-11-24 I am given a message from Kevin Mann which shows that he fully intended to support David More for his gross abuse of power. See Message E. Excommunication a lenient action - good grief, how long was this guy RC for? 20. Some time in 1998 I was contacted by Ted Harrison who had since become the RC, to see if I wanted to rejoin Fidonet. I said I wanted a ruling on my case first, it had been quite a while by now, still without action. He said that he hadn't received the documentation. So I resent it. He then said it was too late, I had passed the statute of limitations. Which is a lie, my appeal and complaint had been duly submitted long before that ever expired. He then decided that I could rejoin Fidonet without his assistance, and that he was only offering to let me back in so that I wouldn't appear to be some sort of martyr. Good grief, did he really expect me to want to come back in under the same fascist regime as the one that denodelisted me arbitrarily? Message A: Date: 1997-01-16 20:25:40 From: David More of 3:711/413 To: Paul Edwards of 3:711/934.9 Subj: Rod Speed Attr: Pvt Rcv Conf: NETMAIL Hi Paul, I have just reviewed the content of Rod Speed's contributions to a variety of echos.. most recently BBS-USER. I am not prepared to have Net 711 involved in the transport of the material he generates as I find it quite offensive to the usual standards of civilied social discourse, and some if is is probably actionable. He can find a place other than 711... and your node... to continue these offensive conversations. Please remove his access to all echomail. If you choose not to acceed to this request, you will simply be de-nodelisted as as the responsible node you are the responsible individual. Cheers David Message B: Date: 1997-03-19 21:11:32 From: David More of 3:711/413 To: Paul Edwards of 3:711/934.9 Subj: Re: FTSC Attr: Pvt Rcv Conf: NETMAIL cc: David Nugent, Kevin Mann, Dave Hatch, Ted Harrison On Mar 18, Paul Edwards got a message from Ted Harrison saying: TH> Your Net Co-ordinator would be the first person to decide TH> whether or not you had been excessively annoying. Paul, he sure will. I have watched this for the last few weeks, and have now concluded that I can no longer support someone behaving, as you are, in such an annoying way towards the whole of the rest of Zone 3 It is clear virtually the entire network disagrees with you, and that even those who greatly admire your coding efforts, as I do, have totally lost patience with all this rubbish. You have made whatever points you have to make and the time has come to stop it! Therefore consider this a formal private warning that I will remove your access to Fido unless you cease all correspondence on this topic by the end of this present week (00:00 Sunday) Frankly it should not come to this, and all of this should have been conducted in netmail for the last 2-3 weeks. I personally am sick of it and find it 'excessively annoying' that you persist with this personal and clearly ill-founded attack on David Nugent and others on the FTSC. This message will be posted in z3 sysop on tues-wed next week unless I am assured, by you, that this will be resolved by the end of this week. Cheers David Message C: Date: 1997-04-03 21:53:46 From: David More of 3:711/413 To: Paul Edwards of 3:711/934.9 Subj: 6 weeks rest Attr: Pvt Rcv Conf: NETMAIL * Original to: Paul Edwards at 3:711/934 CC'd to: Ted Harrison Paul, Because of the unacceptable intensity of the abuse you have levelled at me over the last few weeks, I have removed you from the nodelist for a six (6) week period. This is to allow you to get a better grip on what you write and learn a little respect for the rights others have not to be subjected to offensive and quite absurd levels of abuse. This action is taken under section 4.3 of Policy4 as I have determined the level of abuse you have offered in sufficiently annoying to require this action. Feel free to appeal where ever you want. You will of course appreciate that for any node to feed you while you are suspended from the nodelist is, of itself, a policy violation. You will further appreciate that if this message is disclosed to anyone other than Ted Harrison that I will see it as an excessively annoying breech of confidententiality and will consider the suspension to be indefinite. David. Message D From scorpio.dial.ish.net!grntrs.apana.org.au!p0.f201.n640.grntrs.apana.org.au!Alwyn_Smith Sat Nov 22 12:31:48 1997 Path: scorpio.dial.ish.net!grntrs.apana.org.au!p0.f201.n640.grntrs.apana.org.au!Alwyn_Smith From: Alwyn_Smith@p0.f201.n640.grntrs.apana.org.au (Alwyn Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 22:09:40 GMT+10 Message-ID: Newsgroups: dial.avtech Subject: Still Waiting Organization: Greentrees - All pigs fed and ready to fly Lines: 44 Rod Speed wrote in a message to Ron T Lewis: Hello Rodney, I'm responding to you mostly to annoy you by refuting your continued blusterings and then refusing to be present to see your weak attempts at defending your incompetent ravings after the _facts_ have been stated. ;) RS> He's also welcome to claim that Alwyn should sack Marwick, RS> PARTICULARLY when Alwyn was elected on a platform of cleaning up RS> the mess. I wasn't elected on _ANY_ platform, I declined to provide one. My view is that a *C position should not be decided on political issues but whether or not the candidate is able to perform the technical duties required. I promised no one anything to ensure I could not be held to a specific course of action should I win the election and become privy to the complete story. I have heard nothing whatsoever from Paul Edwards on the subject of his excommunication, though I subsequently ruled that temporary excommunications should be automatically reinstated as "Hold" until they confirm their continued presence as a node. Since Paul Edwards has not seen fit to respond to repeated requests from the N712C for confirmation of his nodelisting details it is now up to the NC as to whether he removes Paul Edwards' Hold entry or not. I disagree strongly with excommunications and have worked behind the scenes to sort the mess out quietly and without further trouble. David More acted in a manner in which he believed was correct, subject to _his_ interpreation of P4; I have since publi cly stated _my_ interpretation is at odds with David's and _mine_ is (as Z3C) the currently correct one. There has been ample opportunity for Paul Edwards to contact me as Z3C, he has not seen fit to do so. The 120 day limit (P4: 9.6) has now expired and as far as I'm concerned the subject is closed. Where you care to take the matter from here or what lies you wish to continue to promulgate is your problem, you are neither a Fidonet node nor someone whose opinion I value, though others worthy of respect do frequent this echo and deserve a response. Alwyn Message E: From: Kevin Mann 712/610 15 Aug 97 20:35:18 To: Rod Speed 712/610 AUST_MODEM Subj: Candidates for Moderator Size: 1092b KM>> David More has, in fact, been subsidising the import of echomail KM>> and files for several years, and has dedicated a large part of his KM>> system to making both available to all - no conditions attached. RS> And chose to throw his weight around and did immense damage to Z3 fido. He gave a loudmouthed and persistent abuser, much like yourself, a short holiday from Fidonet. This totally justified and lenient action was then the catalyst for the net (to themselves at least) moral majority, to indulge themselves in the usual round of trying to outdo each other in the scramble to reach the summit of Mt.LookatmeguysarentIwonderful. It's history now that some hardened old Fidonetters were sickened by this degrading spectacle and withdrew in disgust. ***** END *****